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November 07, 2007

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ONE since 40

wow. the rangers were NOT the first one to start this trend. its been done all over europe and in other hockey leagues. the first to do it in the nhl-maybe. i guess this is a little ranger venting and denial that the isles are truely the better team. the sather organization will never learn... MILLIONS OF DOLLARS DONT MAKE A CUP WINNING TEAM!!!!! and the excuses that RENNEY would make??? look at you. excuses. they should demote you to moyle.

MOSS

ONE since 40-
What difference does it make that the celebration is done in Europe? The fact remains that it was NEVER done in the NHL (not 'maybe', as you stupidly insist, but definately) & the Rangers starting to do it & created a unique relationship with their fans. I admire the Isles attempt to do the same with the 12 fans that actually show up to their games, but for you to deny that this act is CERTAINLY Ranger Envy-which, by the way, your captain was oozing in his post game quotes that I almost fell off my couch laughing- is understandably naive. As far as yor comments that the Isles are the better team, you may be right, if one game is any indication, but lets be patient & see where we are in April.

thedirtyboy

OK, I am a little too busy at work this morning to write the diatribe that I feel like writing after reading this cowardly post.

Rabbi, I post here because I enjoy stirring the pot with rags fans and because I enjoy reading your take on hockey and on your team, but this was was bad... real bad.

You only saw 10 minutes of a game that I actually attended and let me tell you something- all I kept thinking is something that you actually wrote yourself:

"Most of all, there was no escaping the fact that if Lundqvist doesn't stop everything, the Rangers still can't win"

Unlike past games between those two teams, I never once had fear when Jagr, Gomez, Shanahan, Drury, etc- were carrying the puck. The only question in my mind was if and when the Isles got the puck back will it go in or will they have to get the puck back again and shoot again, etc. This theme was repeated all night long. They won every loose puck battle and their legs were moving all night long. This is not a credit to their talent, this is a credit to their effort. This is also a credit to the difference between Tom Renney and Ted Nolan. But for now I really don't even want to go there. All I ask is this: look at the the two teams' rosters and tell me if you ever expected that Mike Comrie would be the most threatening player on the ice all night long?

Now onto the salute thing. I understand that your whole angle when arguing rangers/islanders after a loss is based on this envy theory of yours because you can't actually talk about what transpired during the game itself. But that's a really weak and obvious tactic. The funny thing is I personally love the fact that they're doing it. Actually, I'm sure the entire NHL will follow suit and they should. But let's be clear on one thing:

THE RANGERS DID NOT INVENT THIS THING!

All they did was copy a formula of something that worked in Europe! How can you make something your own when you took it from somewhere else to begin with???

The Islanders did not invent cheerleading, but they did start the ice-girls thing. How many teams are now doing this???

The Islanders did not invent the video camera, but they did start Islanders TV. How many teams are now doing this???

The Islanders did not invent the internet, but they are the first team to have an official blog box. How many teams are doing this???

Teams will always follow a working existing model. This holds true for both on and off the ice (see: the trap).

So please do me a favor, write about hockey. When your team wins write about how great it was and what happened to make your team win. And when they lose, do the same. Be consistent. Be a man.

Where's the article on how Avery's selfish antics at a critical point in the game may have cost the Rangers the win?

MOSS

I think youre missing the point- again- & creating comments that I never made. I never claimed the Rangers invented anything- from the salute to the icegirls. What I did say is that the Islanders decided to copy this idea, b/c they saw the positive reaction the Rangers were getting from this & decided to do it themselves. But make no mistake about it, if the Rangers never started doing this, the Islanders wouldn't either. As you claim, this has been going on 'all over Europe' & the Islanders never thought to do this. But once the Rangers do it......In defense of the Rabbi's line that "the Rangers started the trend", I think we are all intelligent enough to know that he meant in the NHL. Since when do we ever mention anything in this blog & think we are refering to the European leagues?

KH

There's much to ridicule in your post, some of which has already been addressed above. But the thing I want to point out is that your claim that there's such a phenomenon as "Ranger envy" is a classic example of what psychologists call "projection." I have met lots of Ranger fans with Islander envy (as exemplified by the music-to-our-ears "Potvin sucks" chant), but I have never met an Islander fan with Ranger envy. No offense, but what's to envy?

For some self-knowledge, check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

alltoblue

Buffalo,Ottawa,Toronto have done the stick salute as well before the Rangers.Our rangers did not start it in the NHL. I would really like to see us talk about hockey than a stick salute.

MOSS

KH-

Nice link. But why don't you try this one on for size, it likely will help you understand what clearly afflicts you.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

The Hockey Rabbi

play nicely children!

Obviously the Rangers didn't create the stick salute. They did, however, popularize the trend in the NHL as evidenced by the icelanders "adopting" the practice.

Here's the bottom line on "Ranger Envy":

The isles won 4 cups in a row. They were arguably one of the best if not the best dynasty in modern NHL history. The Rangers accomplished nothing for over half a century. Countless Rangers fans had never seen their team accomplish anything. Despite that, the Rangers were, are and always will be New York's "favorite son". Isles fans can talk about tuesday night's game, four in a row, 1940, or whatever else you want to. But you'll always be #2 in New York. That's got to suck. Period.

Dee

Interestingly Stan Fischler at Game On! Thinks the Isles have something to offer...http://blogs.msg.com/gameon/2007/11/islanders----ho.html

The Dark Ranger

We need you back, Rabbi. Don't be affected by Islanders fans. The Dark Ranger Commands You!

fauxrumors

1) The silly stick salute should be banned from ALL arenas. Anything that was started/popularized in Europe can't be a good thing. ; )

Gary

Can' wait for the Rangers to fry the fishsticks on Monday night! Go Rangers! You rule Rabbi!

MOSS

Last nights game was miserable for many reasons. First, the Rangers lost, which never makes me happy, even if they were playing Colombus. Second, they were largely outplayed for basically the entire night. But what really bothers me (actually, I should say ' what scares me') is that Jaromir Jagr- our 'leader'- is obviously not even a shell of his former self, not even a shell of the Jagr of last year. This is a miserable problem, especially so for a team that still is centered around this player. It has become increasingly obvious that this team needs to redirect its focus, as Jagr is no longer the go-to guy. Not even close. But the even bigger problem arises when you ask the obvious follow up question- if not Jagr, then who is the go-to guy? Honestly, after watching last night, I have no idea. Chris Drury looks like a man who regrets signing here. Scott Gomez at times looks like he forgets the Rangers are HIS team. Shanahan is a great leader but he is 63 years old & looks every day of that age. And worst of all, Michal Roszival is our leader in goals scored- by alot. I said in the first week of the season that I don't see anything wrong with taking some time to gel with new teammates. But I said that assuming that guys are going to be given a chance to play with one another for longer than 3 shifts. Renney doesn't really allow for his players ot get uswed to eachother. He put together some lineups that seemed to do well & the team spun of 8 wins in 9 games. Stretches like that are what get teams in to the postseason. But then all of a sudden, 2 bad shifts, and Renney switches everything up. Drury playing the wing on Jagr's line? Come on now.....

thedirtyboy

I don't know what's worse: watching how bad the rags are relative to what they were expected to be or listening to your babble trying to make sense of why they're so pathetic.

Btw, I think a lot of the suits didn't make it out in the cold weather last night-it sounded more like a home game for us! I was wondering whether my boys were going to do the stick salute!!!!

You know what- I'm just gonna stop. I feel bad for you guys- I'm not even enjoying typing this.

Oy Nebakh!

the Dark Ranger

You can actually apply most of this post to last evening's game. Don't change a thing!!!!

GiantSquid

Did Jagr remove Witt's boot from his ass yet? Just wondering.

Eric G

Relative to the lenght of both team's existence, the Islanders, by far, are the more successful franchise. I am happy to see Dolan waste resources and drag their franchise through the mud. The Rangers have the worst management in the NHL.

MOSS

Yeah, the Dolans are not much to be proud of. I couldn't agree with you more. But there is more to a franchise than reducing it to how many cups they have won. Using that philosophy, the Bruins, Maple Leafs, & Blackhawks would be classified as major failures, as they have not won a cup in a 121 years, collecively. We all know that labeling them as 'unseccessful' is highly naive, as any 3 of those teams has more identity with the NHL than the Isles do. The Rangers & Maple Leafs are # 1& 2 in team value (Forbes,Nov. '06), meaning they are doing something right selling their product. The Isles, by the way, are #24. Even the Devils are above them. At what point does one say that the Isles, in the biggest market in the world & still failing to capture an audience, are actually the ones being mismanaged? But thats on a business level. If you want to keep it to strictly hockey, then I would have to point out the Isles wonderful management decisions on Luongo, Palffy, McCabe, Chara, Berard, Redden, Jokinen, etc. Basically, to sum it all up, the point is that you cant judge a team simply by its Cup record. Besides, 1983 was probably the last time the Isles will see a cup, & that was already 24 years ago. Just give it time, & the resluts will not be any better than the Rangers after the same amount of years.

thedirtyboy

ok Moss, 'tis the day before thanksgiving and work is very slow. As a result I will dissect your most recent post.

"Yeah, the Dolans are not much to be proud of. I couldn't agree with you more. But there is more to a franchise than reducing it to how many cups they have won."

No there isn't.

"Using that philosophy, the Bruins, Maple Leafs, & Blackhawks would be classified as major failures, as they have not won a cup in a 121 years, collecively. We all know that labeling them as 'unseccessful' is highly naive, as any 3 of those teams has more identity with the NHL than the Isles do."

Labeling them as unsuccesful ON THE ICE is not naive, it's fact. Take the number of years that all three teams have been in existence and divided by the amount of cups. Or you can just call up a fan of any of those three teams and talk to them- they will tell you the same thing after they stop crying!

"The Rangers & Maple Leafs are # 1& 2 in team value (Forbes,Nov. '06), meaning they are doing something right selling their product. The Isles, by the way, are #24. Even the Devils are above them. At what point does one say that the Isles, in the biggest market in the world & still failing to capture an audience, are actually the ones being mismanaged? But thats on a business level."

Moss, are the Rangers public? Do you own shares? Does Dolan send you a check when there numbers are up? Do I have to send Wang a check to compensate for the $20M he loses annually on the Islanders? Why is this even being mentioned? Who cares?

"If you want to keep it to strictly hockey, then I would have to point out the Isles wonderful management decisions on Luongo, Palffy, McCabe, Chara, Berard, Redden, Jokinen, etc."

Correct. Agreed. Every Islander fan will agree these were horrible moves and we're all very happy to have a new owner and GM. But just to play devil's advocate for a second: I could make a case that atleast we drafted well and have reason to believe that we will continue to. Atleast we have that. The Rangers have been in the gutter for all but a couple of years since I've been on this planet. Can you give me a list of their home grown talent?

"Basically, to sum it all up, the point is that you cant judge a team simply by its Cup record."

Yes you can. As a matter of fact, not only should you... it's the ONLY way to judge. Because any other way of measuring a team's success has nothing to do with the game itself.

"Besides, 1983 was probably the last time the Isles will see a cup, & that was already 24 years ago. Just give it time, & the resluts will not be any better than the Rangers after the same amount of years."

The Islanders have won a cup for every 8.75 years of their existence. The Rangers are at a pace of 20.5 years per cup. If that stat doesn't amuuuuuse you (use Joe Pesci's Good Fella's accent) maybe this will. The success rate I just mentioned includes the period of time they co-existed with only 5 other teams!!!

So here's the whole thing the way i see it. The Rangers have all the resources in the world; biggest city in the world as far as general scope and attention, most famous home arena in the world, UNLIMITED Dolan Dollars, corporate sponsorships, sexiness of an original six franchise, best hotels in the world, best restaurants in the world, best entertainment in the whole world, etc. EVERYTHING that could attract a free agent, draft pick, or current player to resign with the team.

The Islanders have NONE OF THESE. As a matter of fact, not only do they not have them, they actually have these things working very much against them.

How could they have managed a better success rate?

This is my ultimate point. A point that can not be refuted no matter how hard you try because numbers don't lie. When I posed the same arguments to The Hockey Rabbi, he said "I'd rather live in my hell than your heaven". You know what, I respect that. But please don't tell me that you'd rather be a Ranger fan because they are worth more, get more press, get more free agents, have a nicer arena, do more commercials. You want your team to win just like I do. Mine just does it more often.

GiantSquid

Doing something right selling their product? The only reason the Rangers are #2 in "team value" is geography.

Same with their attendance #'s. Next time you're watching an Isles/Rangers game at MSG take a close look. There are empty seats. Now Isles/Rags at NVMC? Basically every seat with be occupied before the anthem is even played.
Lots of the folks that show up at MSG are random corporate welfare 'give aways', even at an Isles/Rans match. The people you find at NVMC are all fans. Big difference.

The difference between rags and some of the other orig 6 teams is this: they have spent more cash over the years than probably Toronto, Boston and Chicago put together and have practically nothing to show for it.

Add up the coin and you'll see a piss poor business model. Laughable by any standards.

MOSS

Those seats you refer to at NVMV are mostly Ranger fans. Thats why it is full before the anthem. All other games , you'll be lucky to see 11,000 show up. And by the way, just to remind you, the Isles have everything the Rangers do geographically (their buildings are 10 miles apart). The difference is nobody gives a rats behind that New York has a team called the Islanders. Really. I wish it would be different, as it is in baseball. The Mets have a genuine fan base that rivals the Yanks. But in hockey, the Islanders are really like a minor league affiliate. That, to me, is a reflection on how managment has sold their brand & product. Also, I would like to point out that while the Isles did win their 4 cups- and those teams were honestly some of the greatest- they were all won in one time period. While that does not take away at all from the fact that they won 4 cups( in fact, winning 4 in a row probably will never happen in any sport ever again), it means that other than a 4 year spurt, they have been meaningless to the league, not even making the playoffs in half of their non-cup years. Is that a success? I know you guys had your '1940' thing & '54 years without a cup' that you lost for good in 1994. But have you really reduced yourselves to calculating averages? Don't you have anything better to do, like maybe drive out to the old barn & watch a game with the other 200 people in the stands?

Rick Marnon

If any team does this it is for the fans. There is no envy in it. It's good for the game and the people that enjoy watching the game.

MOSS

Anyone hear anything regarding Al Montoya? He was sitting a few rows from me at the Rangers-Isles game last week, & I wonder what they are gonna do with a guy who plays a position that is obviously filled for years.

thedirtyboy

Kids,

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